I personally know … I personally know many people who were treated with acupuncture for different conditions and it worked: migraine,
depression, sinusitis, chronic backache, insomnia…
I have tried it recently and found the results quite surprising.
Acupuncture isnt in … Acupuncture isnt in the mind a recent study did a placebo effect on people with needles that retracted into the handle… and guess what? the placebo didnt work they didnt get the outcome from what real needles give
My dads taiwanese. … My dads taiwanese. and hese been watching lots of acupuncture vids. lol. and he showd me one tht actually worked! i thought it was gonna b dumb, but it actually works! it got rid of my runny nose for like an hour. and thne i just do it again this stuff actually works
I live in Taiwan. I … I live in Taiwan. I have R.A. and my accupuncturist is giving up on me. He’s sending me to a clinic where I get to be stung by a bee 3 times a week. Very effective he says.
In other words: All … In other words: All studies where the acupuncturist knows if he gives “real” or placebo treatment are bound to show confirmation bias, and even with this bias the results of the placebo group are pretty close to the test group. Besides, “success” is only “proven” when the result can’t be measured, but is based on the patient’s verbal statements. Finally, at least in cases of r.arthritis it’s clear that acupuncture doesn’t do anything.
The one study on … The one study on rheumatoid arthritis is not only biased but also dates back to 1974. There’s a newer study from 1999, “The effect of acupuncture on patients with rheumatoid arthritis: a randomized, placebo-controlled cross-over study”, J.David, S.Townsend, R.Sathanathan, S.Kriss and C.J.Doré1, published by the British Society for Rheumatology; it shows that acupuncture doesn’t reduce the inflammatory markers and comes to the conclusion that acupuncture is pointless in cases of R.A.
I have reviewed the … I have reviewed the papers mentioned by mg200442000. Most of them focus on pain and nausea, i.e. symptoms where the placebo effect can truly shine. No proper double-blind trials since the acupuncturist knew if “real” or “sham” acp. was applied. The “success rates” of the placebo control groups were too close to the results of the test groups to be deemed statistically significant (about 10% difference only). This doesn’t prove anything.
Well I’m very … Well I’m very encouraged that you’re using accredited medical institutions to make your case. However, I remain somewhat skeptical because the science does not yet appear to be conclusive and, probably more importantly, because I have yet to have the physiology of acupuncture explained to me in a modern medical context.
Perhaps you can help me with that. How does acupuncture actually work? I’ve been waiting for someone to explain that to me sufficiently for a long time.
Is that why the … Is that why the UCLA and Stanford Medical Schools teach acupuncture to Doctors? If it was only Placebo the FDA would shut down those and every other school that teaches acupuncture and ban licensure.
Acupuncture is better than Placebo,thats one reason the FDA approved acu needles as a medical device back in 1996. If it was BS the lawyers and lobbyists from the insurance companies would surely overturn the mandates in some states that cover it.
Is that why the … Is that why the UCLA and Stanford Medical Schools teach acupuncture to Doctors because Western medicine isn’t available or affordable here in the US? If it was only Placebo the FDA would shut down those and every other school that teaches acupuncture.
Acupuncture is better than Placebo,thats one reason the FDA approved acu needles as a medical device back in 1996. If it was BS the lawyers and lobbyists from the insurance companies would surely overturn the mandates in some states that cover it.
Thanks for the info … Thanks for the info on Europe,I know France and England have had it around a longer time than us and are developing their own styles,but it all is very close to Chinese in the big picture. I took a Critical Appraisal of the Literature Class and looked on the cochranereview website (my grad school has full access) and reviewed the reviews so to speak for many acupuncture studies here in the US. Very astounding at how many are published favorably in the Annals of Internal Medicine here in the USA
So it’s not medical … So it’s not medical science that is being taught at the world renowned UCLA and Stanford Schools of Medicine? They teach acupuncture there for MDs and currently have at least 5000 MDs practicing acupuncture in their conventional practice. So how are you more qualified than these two mainstream, upstanding, and outstanding medical schools to judge what is and what is not scientific?
It’s funny because … It’s funny because if its placebo then why didn’t their family MD help, or the specialist help that they were sent to, or the many “cures” they tried from the internet or anecdotal sources, because it is usually after all of this that acupuncturists finally get to treat the patient. It is my personal experience that the more failed attempts you have at something the lower your faith becomes, thus your chance of placebo working diminish also. Look up what “nocebo” effect is.
“Why did the WHO … “Why did the WHO use them then?”
Good question.
On their website they say that their plan is to use alternative medicines in places where western medicine isn’t available, costs too much, etc. I guess they figure culturally targeted placebos will be better than nothing.
“Why did the WHO … “Why did the WHO use them then?”
Good question.
On their website they say that their plan is to use alternative medicines in places where western medicine isn’t available, costs too much, etc. I guess they figure culturally targeted placebos will be better than nothing.
“Why did the WHO … “Why did the WHO use them then?”
Good question.
On their website they say that their plan is to use alternative medicines in places where western medicine isn’t available, costs too much, etc. I guess they figure culturally targeted placebos will be better than nothing.
For example, for … For example, for the case of rheumatoid arthritis, they say, “While acupuncture may not improve the damage that has been done to the joints, successful pain relief has been verified in the majority of controlled studies”. There are hundreds of other ‘traditional’ treatments that can do that for some people, including placebo.
In short, it’s easy to say that acupuncture completely cures some things and helps others when ’some things’ is hiccups and ‘others’ is arthritis pain.
Mmm, yes, the WHO … Mmm, yes, the WHO does use those studies, but they tend to say inconclusive things like ‘may be useful in helping to treat condition x’. There is also not a substantial discussion of placebos, they often don’t specify methods of action, they note that there are varying levels of effectiveness, and many of the ‘conditions’ described are conditions that can go away on their own (hiccups, anxiety, constipation).
Ok, I can’t seem to … Ok, I can’t seem to get more than the abstracts of the articles you cited mg, but most of the other articles that cite them seem to be concluding that their placebos and controls weren’t sufficient to test acupuncture.
Learn how acupuncture can work for you - free video.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I personally know …
I personally know many people who were treated with acupuncture for different conditions and it worked: migraine,
depression, sinusitis, chronic backache, insomnia…
I have tried it recently and found the results quite surprising.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Acupuncture isnt in …
Acupuncture isnt in the mind a recent study did a placebo effect on people with needles that retracted into the handle… and guess what? the placebo didnt work they didnt get the outcome from what real needles give
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
My dads taiwanese. …
this stuff actually works 
My dads taiwanese. and hese been watching lots of acupuncture vids. lol. and he showd me one tht actually worked! i thought it was gonna b dumb, but it actually works! it got rid of my runny nose for like an hour. and thne i just do it again
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Thank you for …
Thank you for posting this information.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I live in Taiwan. I …
I live in Taiwan. I have R.A. and my accupuncturist is giving up on me. He’s sending me to a clinic where I get to be stung by a bee 3 times a week. Very effective he says.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
In other words: All …
In other words: All studies where the acupuncturist knows if he gives “real” or placebo treatment are bound to show confirmation bias, and even with this bias the results of the placebo group are pretty close to the test group. Besides, “success” is only “proven” when the result can’t be measured, but is based on the patient’s verbal statements. Finally, at least in cases of r.arthritis it’s clear that acupuncture doesn’t do anything.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
The one study on …
The one study on rheumatoid arthritis is not only biased but also dates back to 1974. There’s a newer study from 1999, “The effect of acupuncture on patients with rheumatoid arthritis: a randomized, placebo-controlled cross-over study”, J.David, S.Townsend, R.Sathanathan, S.Kriss and C.J.Doré1, published by the British Society for Rheumatology; it shows that acupuncture doesn’t reduce the inflammatory markers and comes to the conclusion that acupuncture is pointless in cases of R.A.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I have reviewed the …
I have reviewed the papers mentioned by mg200442000. Most of them focus on pain and nausea, i.e. symptoms where the placebo effect can truly shine. No proper double-blind trials since the acupuncturist knew if “real” or “sham” acp. was applied. The “success rates” of the placebo control groups were too close to the results of the test groups to be deemed statistically significant (about 10% difference only). This doesn’t prove anything.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Well I’m very …
Well I’m very encouraged that you’re using accredited medical institutions to make your case. However, I remain somewhat skeptical because the science does not yet appear to be conclusive and, probably more importantly, because I have yet to have the physiology of acupuncture explained to me in a modern medical context.
Perhaps you can help me with that. How does acupuncture actually work? I’ve been waiting for someone to explain that to me sufficiently for a long time.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Is that why the …
Is that why the UCLA and Stanford Medical Schools teach acupuncture to Doctors? If it was only Placebo the FDA would shut down those and every other school that teaches acupuncture and ban licensure.
Acupuncture is better than Placebo,thats one reason the FDA approved acu needles as a medical device back in 1996. If it was BS the lawyers and lobbyists from the insurance companies would surely overturn the mandates in some states that cover it.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Is that why the …
Is that why the UCLA and Stanford Medical Schools teach acupuncture to Doctors because Western medicine isn’t available or affordable here in the US? If it was only Placebo the FDA would shut down those and every other school that teaches acupuncture.
Acupuncture is better than Placebo,thats one reason the FDA approved acu needles as a medical device back in 1996. If it was BS the lawyers and lobbyists from the insurance companies would surely overturn the mandates in some states that cover it.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Thanks for the info …
Thanks for the info on Europe,I know France and England have had it around a longer time than us and are developing their own styles,but it all is very close to Chinese in the big picture. I took a Critical Appraisal of the Literature Class and looked on the cochranereview website (my grad school has full access) and reviewed the reviews so to speak for many acupuncture studies here in the US. Very astounding at how many are published favorably in the Annals of Internal Medicine here in the USA
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
good point …
good point Robertlowryjr…and all of the 12,000 M.D.’s in europe are trained in auricular acupuncture and use it in practice.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
So it’s not medical …
So it’s not medical science that is being taught at the world renowned UCLA and Stanford Schools of Medicine? They teach acupuncture there for MDs and currently have at least 5000 MDs practicing acupuncture in their conventional practice. So how are you more qualified than these two mainstream, upstanding, and outstanding medical schools to judge what is and what is not scientific?
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
It’s funny because …
It’s funny because if its placebo then why didn’t their family MD help, or the specialist help that they were sent to, or the many “cures” they tried from the internet or anecdotal sources, because it is usually after all of this that acupuncturists finally get to treat the patient. It is my personal experience that the more failed attempts you have at something the lower your faith becomes, thus your chance of placebo working diminish also. Look up what “nocebo” effect is.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Interrater …
Interrater reliability?
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Oh wow. The post …
Oh wow. The post button didn’t gray out immediately after I clicked it… sorry for all the repeat posts.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
“Why did the WHO …
“Why did the WHO use them then?”
Good question.
On their website they say that their plan is to use alternative medicines in places where western medicine isn’t available, costs too much, etc. I guess they figure culturally targeted placebos will be better than nothing.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
“Why did the WHO …
“Why did the WHO use them then?”
Good question.
On their website they say that their plan is to use alternative medicines in places where western medicine isn’t available, costs too much, etc. I guess they figure culturally targeted placebos will be better than nothing.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
“Why did the WHO …
“Why did the WHO use them then?”
Good question.
On their website they say that their plan is to use alternative medicines in places where western medicine isn’t available, costs too much, etc. I guess they figure culturally targeted placebos will be better than nothing.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Why did the WHO use …
Why did the WHO use them then? Are they not credible?
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
For example, for …
For example, for the case of rheumatoid arthritis, they say, “While acupuncture may not improve the damage that has been done to the joints, successful pain relief has been verified in the majority of controlled studies”. There are hundreds of other ‘traditional’ treatments that can do that for some people, including placebo.
In short, it’s easy to say that acupuncture completely cures some things and helps others when ’some things’ is hiccups and ‘others’ is arthritis pain.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Mmm, yes, the WHO …
Mmm, yes, the WHO does use those studies, but they tend to say inconclusive things like ‘may be useful in helping to treat condition x’. There is also not a substantial discussion of placebos, they often don’t specify methods of action, they note that there are varying levels of effectiveness, and many of the ‘conditions’ described are conditions that can go away on their own (hiccups, anxiety, constipation).
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Ask the World …
Ask the World Health Organization, they used the study.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Ok, I can’t seem to …
Ok, I can’t seem to get more than the abstracts of the articles you cited mg, but most of the other articles that cite them seem to be concluding that their placebos and controls weren’t sufficient to test acupuncture.